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07 May 2012 @ 01:24 pm
got 2x06 the old gods and the new  
Okay, premise: if we all want to discuss Theon like civilized people, that's cool. If the general opinion is 'OMG SOMEONE KILL HIM ASAP' just don't bother. Just don't.

1. Okay, stuff that I don't FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT FIRST: Dany, sorry, but I just don't care about your revenge dreams. And there was no Jorah to ogle at, so yeah. Sorry. But the 'I'll take what's mine with fire and blood' thing is getting old. Also, your dad was a crappy king and he said exactly the same stuff - just think about it.

2. About more important things: RIOT SCENE EVERYONE.

First, woooaaaah HBO, thanks for all the gore. That was disgusting. But that said, I'm glad they did it like that - mostly because at least it sent our lovely people ruling a reminder that the people they're supposed to rule aren't there to just bow in front of them when they aren't, well, frankly giving a shit. Yes, I was also referring to Cersei being like 'who gives a shit about the smallfolk', and say what you want but if you want to be a decent ruler you should at least consider the poor bastards you're supposed to rule. Then again the point isn't that any of the people up there are decent, but hey, I'm the kind of person that usually approves of riots. (Democracy in Westeros FTW! *cough* or at least, A PARLIAMENT IN WESTEROS FTW.)

Apart from the political rant, HI, MY SANSA/SANDOR FEELINGS, THEY'RE VERY VERY VERY HIGH RIGHT NOW. That scene. YES. I loved that they actually showed it fully rather than having Sandor telling Tyrion or how the heck it was in the book.

No seriously YES to all of that. I feel like I'm not very eloquent but what little Sansa/Sandor stuff happened this season pretty much fit my expectations, so.

3. JON AND YGRITTE = SHOW, THANK YOU. Just. Thank you. Rose Leslie is perfect. PERFECT. And the dialogue. And Ygritte humping him. And HE DOESN'T KNOW YET BUT HE TOTALLY STOLE HER. JUST YES TO ALL OF THAAAAAATTTT.

4. Okay, on to the main issue.

Theon, you totally flawless fucked up mess, let me have feelings while watching you being a trainwreck. I've surfed online some to find out that he's, in the order, comparable to Hitler, an ungrateful fuck, a total and complete dick, deserving of every horrible thing in the world, and that he's such a failure that he can't even cut one head in one go.

Or, just starting at random: that totally was the point. To cut a head in one go you have to be either Ned Stark or Ilyn Payne, and [book three spoilers relevant to robb/theon people too]Robb didn't cut the Karstark's guy head in a single blow either - HOW ABOUT THAT. Of course he couldn't cut off Ser Rodrik's head in one go. And mind that he was taking the supposed iron price in the Stark way - I don't think Ironborn give much of a shit about how you kill a prisoner. And when Bran asked him if he hated them all since he was at Winterfell, he looked hurt (ALFIE ALLEN ALL THE AWARDS), because he doesn't hate them. He wants to be one of them (which he never was, and sorry about the OMG HE'S SO UNGRATEFUL THEY LOVED HIM SO MUCH - no. Read the book. Robb was the only one he was close to. He technically doesn't owe them anything and he DID try to get Robb the alliance.) And now that he is in name, he wants to be one in fact, and he utterly and totally fails at it. People were like 'LOL NO ONE WOULD FOLLOW HIM', but it's not.. funny. It's that he's a bad leader and he's doing it the wrong way - the Ironborns can't respect him because he's a stranger to their customs (he had to have Dagmer explaining him how to do it ffs) and at Winterfell they never liked him that much/taken him seriously. Of course it's a trainwreck. It has to be a trainwreck. That's why he's a TRAGIC character, ffs.

That said, people hating on Osha are ridiculous. It was obvious she was trying to sleep with him just to get Bran and Rickon to run. *facepalm*

But still about Theon: I don't really mind that they had Ser Rodrik die now rather than later - it totally proves the point they wanted to make and it doesn't really make much of a difference. It just shows you how truly he fucked up. (PS: he didn't -want- to do it. He wouldn't have if his right hand man hadn't insisted.) And yes, saying that he just wants his family to acknowledge him is a shitty excuse, but as stated, he's been a trainwreck since he burned Robb's letter. Of course he fucks up. And it still doesn't make him Hitler or OMG THE WORST PERSON EVER HE SHOULD BE BURNED ALIVE.

Tldr: I obviously do NOT approve of Theon going all 'YEAAAH I'M TAKING WINTERFELL' but I get why he'd do it (considering that his train of thought is utterly fucked by this point) and I'll just weep my bitter tears and feel heartbroken.

4. Bran: ;_____________________________; (and Rickon too oh god) that scene at the beginning when Theon barged in was just - they really pulled that off, with Bran not even believing it at the beginning. And 'did you always hate us' UGH. MY HEARTTTT. (Also: 'I can't fight for Robb and my father at the same time' - LOOK WHO WAS MENTIONED FIRST. Theon, you just really want to be a Stark. Sigh. You're the most flawless fucked up trainwreck ever.)

5. Errrrr soooo wait, if Bran and Rickon are escaping now... are they doing this without the Reed kids? ....... I'm not so sure it could work out. Brb waiting to judge.

6. Good to know Robb isn't easily trolled. Just tell us that the girl's name is Jeyne Westerling.

7. Canon change approved: Robb and Brienne in the same scene.

8. ROBB'S REACTION TO THE NEWS ABOUT WINTERFELL UUUUUUUUUUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I'LL TAKE HIS HEAD MYSELF MY POOR SAD TRAGIC SHIP. ;______________________________;

And clearly Roose Bolton had to happen. Fuck you, ser. You and your bastard son. (I'm torn between being happy to know they didn't change that part and dreading it. And the worst thing is that the bastard son will get less hate than Theon is getting right now. Wanna bet?)

9. That said Richard Madden you look gorgeouuussss. #shallow

10. I also had shit to say about Arya and about how much I can't hate Tywin and possibly about Tyrion and Cersei but I have class in five minutes so this'll have to suffice for now.
 
 
feeling: crushedcrushed
 
 
 
Lou: GoT. Sansa Starkquantumdoll on May 7th, 2012 01:46 pm (UTC)
Can I just share in all your feels please? *revels in them* I remember reading A clash of Kings and being like "wow Theon you little fuck" but damn...you just know what is coming, and I think if people looked a little harder at his character, instead of seeing him as a mini tyrant (that would be Joffrey) they'd see what a fantastic actor Alfie Allen is. The scene where he stormed Winterfell was executed perfectly. He's such an awkward boy, he could literally see him losing to Bran when he asked Bran to hand Winterfell over. He has no one who cares, no one who loves him. The Greyjoys think Theon is a joke, the folk of Winterfell don't care about him one way...he's pathetic, and lost. I can't hate Theon, I could never hate him. He's so very human, so damn flawled, and how can you hate someone for making human mistakes. I actually shivered when Roose mentioned Ramsey Snow.

Sandor and Sansa. Ye gods. HE CALLED HER LITTLE BIRD! ADJALKFHLAJHF;AH
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> sansajanie_tangerine on May 7th, 2012 11:02 pm (UTC)
YOU CAN TOTALLY SHARE MY FEELS. Seriously. In the book, I think that reading his thought process made him more difficult to relate to because okay, fine, he's an ass, but upon re-reading his ACOK stuff I was like OMG OMG NOOO DON'T DO IT WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO YOURSELF so I guess it was there if you went past the asshole-ness. But that said... YES TO THAT. Alfie Allen is so good I can't even - he's got the character down so well, I want to give him awards myself. And yeah, he just made it totally obvious that even if he's in a (supposed) position of power he's still losing because his captives don't take him seriously, his men don't, his family doesn't and he made an enemy out of the only person who gave a damn about him. And yeah, he made a huge fuck up, but it was a human fuck up, it doesn't make him a horrriiiibleee monster. Sigh. And ugh me too - when Roose was like 'oh yes my bastard son can take care of this' I legit had a moment where I thought I'd vomit. The only person I'd wish Ramsay on is Ramsay himself *cough*.

HE SAID LITTLE BIRD!!!! :DDDDDDDDDDD THAT PART WAS JUST SO GOOD.
The Cleaverage: end is nighkel_reiley on May 7th, 2012 10:01 pm (UTC)
1. I'm finding it amazing how my interest is shifting in show vs. books. Because I was rooting for Dany in the books, but she's just not making me care in the show! Opposite for Cercei - I mean I'm not rooting for her, but I don't think she's the most boring thing ever in the show.

2. ENTRAILS! Sandor/Sansa FTW!

3. Insanely happy with that part :D

4. Strangely, I'm coming to sympathize with Theon now. Which I didn't in the books at all. Mostly I'm just yelling at him "YOU DON'T NEED TO DO THIS! BE SMARTER!"

How can anyone hate Osha? HOW?! No. Don't tell me. I don't want to know.

5. OMG I totally forgot about them! Maybe they'll meet them on the way instead?

6. Yes.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on May 7th, 2012 10:55 pm (UTC)
1. Me too. I'm not sure I ever rooted for Dany for real, mostly because I'm not into the Targaryen thing much and tbh I'd rather have someone practical on that throne, but I liked her in the book a loooot more than in the show. I'm half-sure that it's also because of ADWD - that book made me totally lose interest in her side of the story, or at least now I want her to stay a freaking Khaleesi because it's what seems to be what she likes best, but yeah. And Cersei annoys me a lot less, though I still want to headdesk most times she opens her mouth. xD

2. OUR SHIP! And hahah entrails indeed, if only they had belonged to Littlefinger xD

3. Me too! :D Jon/Ygritte is totally my third het ship. ;)

4. In the books the fact that his head wasn't exactly a pleasant place to be didn't help - but the show has done good in at least making him more sympathetic. Even if he's getting hate anyway. The problem is that he's a trainwreck, he can't be smarter, but yeah, I yell that at him all the time too.

Idk, the basic argument was 'BUT OSHA, HOW COULD YOU EVEN WANT TO SLEEP WITH HIM??!!!' and I was like 'dude, you get that she's playing on the one thing he knows would work to get him not to pay attention?' I mean, it seemed obvious to me that she was fucking with him from second one (as everyone else in that series really xD) but apparently some people bought it. I can't.

5. Yeaah. Or at least they have to meet up with someone else because if Osha goes with Rickon then it can't be just Bran and Hodor with no guide whatsoever. There has to be at least one Reed kid or one substitute.

6. We can hope?
The Cleaverage: misfitskel_reiley on May 7th, 2012 11:35 pm (UTC)
1. Word re: ADWD - I had to really force myself to finish that one :(

3. I'm SO SAD thinking about what happens later!

4. OBVIOUSLY she was playing him! I mean... DUH!

5. Ugh. I'm not ready for us to NEVER SEE Osha and Rickon again :(((( Although, don't they hide out in the underground tombs for a bit first? That was a thing, I think.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> brienne 3.0janie_tangerine on May 8th, 2012 08:36 am (UTC)
Thankfully OI didn't have to because after all I liked everyone else in there with POVs (or at least, I liked Theon/Jon/Tyrion, which made the majority of the thing altogether) but Dany's parts... ugh. I was like 'dude please tell me there's either Jon or Theon after, it's gonna be angst but at least I won't DIE OF BOREDOM.'

:(((((((((

Yeah. Idk what kind of show people are watching. If you bought that Osha really wanted to kneel to Theon then.. idk. Really. Lol. IT'S A WILDLING FFS, she won't bend the knee to the first green boy happening around if she doesn't have a very good reason.

Me either. Maybe we get more than the books gave us? At least because they can't afford to let the audience forget that they exist. That said yeah they hide down until Winterfell gets burned and then they leave, but if Bran has to run into some Reed kids substitute maybe they'll escape first? Who knows.
falafel_musings: thrones 2falafel_musings on May 7th, 2012 10:25 pm (UTC)
It's soooo good to come to a sympathetic Theon post! Yes, there is a lot of hate around...even on my flist made up of fans who usually like complex conflicted 'villain' characters. I feel your pain. Several of my favourite BSG characters ended up being 'traitors' for very tragic reasons and fandoms do seem to reserve a special hatred for formerly trusted characters who turn against the 'good guys' of the show.

I was talking to Lenina (where is she?) recently comparing Theon's childhood situation to Sansa's. Both taken hostage as children by families who killed members of their family. Both seemingly treated well by their captors, well fed, well dressed, etc. Yes, Sansa's life was threatened over Robb's rebellion but it's my understanding that if Balon had rebelled again then Theon's life would've been under threat too. As honorable as Ned was, he was still a soldier. I don't think he'd have taken Theon hostage if he wasn't prepared to use him as a hostage if needs be.

Now, if Sansa were sent back to the Starks and then helped them overthrow Kings Landing and take all the Lannisters prisoner I don't think Sansa would be viewed as a traitor even though several of Team Lannister (the Hound, Tyrion, etc) have been kind to her. Of course the big difference here is Theon is not a girl. It's acceptable for a girl to be a helpless hostage. A boy is expected to avenge his father and brothers. Theon was an innocent pawn when he was taken prisoner by the Starks. I was rewatching some S1 scenes and he really seemed to be in denial about his situation, calling himself a 'ward' and cutting anyone off if they tried to call him anything else. Theon had no choice yet his father seems to blame him for being taken hostage and his sister mocks him him for it. Just like Robb and Jon, Theon is at an age where he is trying to prove himself as a man but he's already had so many people emasculate him for a situation in which he was a powerless child prisoner. And not just his father and sister - in S1 both Tyrion and Ros mock Theon for his 'loyalty to his captors' so he's scorned on both sides for a hostage situation in which he was the victim. That's harsh!

As I've said on another LJ I think Theon had imagined he could be a kind merciful captor in Winterfell as much as Ned Stark was a kind merciful captor to him. It's interesting how Theon is vaguely friendly to Bran, like nothing much has changed, it's just Bran is going to be the prisoner now not Theon. But of course the Iron born are a ruthless bloodthirsty gang so Theon must do things their way to prove whose side he's really on. Theon really doesn't know what he's doing. The confused panic in Alfie Allen's eyes (even as he tries to sound commanding) was so perfect. Another great actor in this stellar cast.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theonjanie_tangerine on May 7th, 2012 10:45 pm (UTC)
And it's good to have sympathetic Theon people to talk to ;) really, after I read the Hitler thing I kind of really flipped. At this point I'd probably be defending him even if I didn't like him just on fucking principle because seriously, he's a fucked up kid, not a genocide mastermind. *facepalm* I figured I could take it - I mean jfc other than Davos and Robb, my other favorite male character is Jaime who is usually widely disliked until a certain point in the story while I liked him from the beginning, but ugh. I obviously can't take Theon hate as much as I thought I could. ;)

(LENINA, BY THE WAY, WHERE ARE YOU WE NEED TO TALK TO YOU ;) ) You totally have a point about Theon and Sansa having parallel stories or at least alot of points in common, though Sansa hasn't spent more than half of her life captive, which is imo is the root of everything that's wrong with Theon - jfc the guy's been having identity issues since he was fucking nine, of course he'd just snap when he was put into a situation where he had to choose which side to take (which is why he went back home THINKING HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO - which everyone conveniently forgets). And yeah those S1 scenes totally hit the nail about his status - mostly because whenever he called himself a ward or put himself in a situation of power someone arrived to remind him that it wasn't his place. And I kind of find it ludicrous when people are like 'BUT THE STARKS LOVED YOU' - there's some place in the book where he clearly states that he only was friends with Robb and that Ned never was close to him because he knew that he' might have to kill him should his father get out of line. (Which is the worst thing about it actually - I mean, it's obvious that Balon was planning on going to war anyway regardless of Theon's situation.) And the reason I want to strangle his father is that he just goes and blames *Theon* for being less than he should or whatever when *he* was the reason the kid got taken as a hostage in the first place. Bleargh. And YES about him being scorned by both sides. Like, come on! YOU GET ISSUES! Real issues!

Theon had imagined he could be a kind merciful captor in Winterfell as much as Ned Stark was a kind merciful captor to him.

THIS. Except that (have some more Sansa parallels!) he's pretty much living in a fantasy - he's bad at it because no one trusts him, not even his men, and it was obvious that he hadn't expected to have to kill poor Rodrik. Or to have to prove himself that way. He's getting everything wrong, but the tragic is that he gets everything wrong because no one ever put him in a position to get it right and the one time someone gave him credit (Robb) he had to throw that out of the window. THIS ENTIRE THING MAKES ME CRY, surely it doesn't make me want to kill him. Also yes yes YES about Alfie Allen. He's so good, I can't even. I had understood last season that they picked the right guy but he's blowing it out of the park this round. Awards, they're needed.
princessaudrii: pic#117171688princessaudrii on May 8th, 2012 06:55 am (UTC)
Dany's Dragons Dragonnapped?!!
WTF? Was I the only one who doesn't remember this being in the book?

Did that happen?
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> ashajanie_tangerine on May 8th, 2012 08:23 am (UTC)
Re: Dany's Dragons Dragonnapped?!!
I don't think it was in the book but from what I remember she refused to give them one in exchange for the ships at some point before she went into the house of the dead (or maybe some point later, idk) so maybe they made up this thing so she has something else to do with another episode or two, because to cover what else she was doing in ACOK two episodes should be enough. *two cents*
IrisParry: Needleirisparry on May 8th, 2012 11:31 pm (UTC)
Oh God, I don't think I have gotten through 5 minutes of Alfie Allen screen time without weeping like a child this season - and it just isn't going to let up! I think the complexity of the character is more apparent in the series than the books. The beheading scene in Winterfell was SO harrowing because a) Bran was incredible but mainly b) Theon was so obviously completely hysterically bricking it. When Ser Rodrik said "Gods help you, Theon Greyjoy, now you are truly lost" I thought YES and he knows it, just look at his face! His eyes kept getting wider and he was barely holding it together. Made me think of the later scenes in Macbeth - "I am in blood / stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more / Returning were as tedious as go o'er." Deep down (or not so deep) he knows he's totally screwed.

Daenerys is boring the crap out of me even earlier than in the books, and one really ought not to feel that way about a character with BABY DRAGONS ferchrissakes.

Jon Snow was a bit of a berk this week - just made Ygritte seem even more awesome. I can't wait til she says IT (should be a ' finish the bottle' moment in the drinking game - well, the first time at least, or things'd just get out of hand). I disapprove of her escaping rather than him letting her go though. Thought that was an important distinction. I think they wanted to play up the contrasts with Theon's attempt at beheading/following orders/ proving himself though.

I Disapprove of this Robb/lady whatsername business. Don't see what they're hoping to add, and I think the sense of duty he has toward Jeyne in the book - rather than just falling head over heels in looooooove - is important to who he is.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> robb 3.0janie_tangerine on May 12th, 2012 02:36 pm (UTC)
Me neither :((( he's so good, isn't he? He's just knocking it out of the park. And YES to everything about the beheading scene - it was so obvious how much Theon was out of it while doing that. And the Macbeth thing is totally a good parallel - ugh, THEON ;___________;

That. In the books I started getting bored with her stuff at ADWD but here I just want to lay back and sleep through it. If Jorah is there everything is good because I just ogle at his face, but if not... pfff. Yeah. Sigh. I just don't care.

HAHAHAHA I KNOW? She needs to say THAT asap. Just let me hear it and I can be happy. :D I'd have liked it better if he had let her go as in the book but since they're probably trying to drag that part some (I mean, if I remember well in the book the entire Ygritte thing went down in the last two chapters, and in theory Jon's part right now is set a lot later in the book than everyone else's) so maybe he'll let her escape later? But yeah, the contrast with Theon's beheading attempt worked really well.

That. Sigh. I get that they might have wanted to spice it up and that book!Jeyne's personality wasn't the most well-developed trait but I disapprove of this thing. At least she has to be highborn because on top of everything else Robb marrying out of sheer love/feelings without the whole honor/duty thing when he knows he's possibly fucking up his war by doing it is just.. I can't do it.
Thaíssa: theonmoneeypenny on May 12th, 2012 06:03 am (UTC)

if we all want to discuss Theon like civilized people, that's cool. If the general opinion is 'OMG SOMEONE KILL HIM ASAP'
This is a very important matter, srsly I'm not even discussing the eps. with irl rn, because they all are this way :(

I don't care about Dany either <33 And I don't want her to be the queen of westeros. I want westeros be divided in 7 kingdoms again :D

The almost rape scene of sansa. JFC. I WAS SO SCARED FOR HER. It was so distressful seeing that. Thank god for Sandor coming to rescue his little bird.

I think I love Ygritte more in the tv show that in the books. Rose is perfect!

IA WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID ABOUT THEON. *UGLYSOBBING*
supposed iron price in the Stark way OMG, this said so much about theon life in general, always between places, never belonging anywhere :(
Alfie to all the awards tbh. I love how in every scene his face show confuse, doubtful, strangling with his decisions

4. MFTE. Bran and Rickon made me weep. ._.

8. I LOVE HOW HE SAID: I WANT HIM ALIVE TO LOOK IN HIS EYES AND ASK WHY. DHSIUGVFAGHNJBHCJBJHGBFDJHFD sobbing. theonxrobb is canon, man.

Something that don't have in the books, but I approve very much it's the "friendship" between sansa and shae :D

the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on May 12th, 2012 02:43 pm (UTC)
Meh, yesterday I was talking to someone on twitter and they were in the 'I read all the books and I think he deserved it' camp and discussing it felt physically painful. :/// I just can't even go there. I just wish someone looked at it from his POV but pfff, sure. I can't deal with Theon hating, I CAN'T. :(

I want Dany to be a khaleesi. End of it. Whatever you can say about how she ended up in that position, the more this goes on the more I think it's what a) makes her.. well, happier or at least what she's best at and b) that she's never even going to Westeros at this point. Also I'm wary of any Targaryen ending up on the throne tbh - REMEMBER THE LAST ONE. I'm probably one of the three people who as things are right now wants Stannis to get it because he's the only one who actually gets that it's not about *him*, but figures.

He called her little bird! <3 I just - I really liked that scene. Even if UGH THE ALMOST RAPE :(((

Ygritte is just awesome all the way. ;)

Yeah that scene was just... it. He gets someone to pay the iron price, he does it the way a Stark would have, he totally fucks it up. Story of his life indeed. :((( and yeah Alfie ALL THE FREAKING AWARDS PETER DINKLAGE WHO. No seriously, he's perfect. So. Perfect.

Don't get me started. BRAN AND RICKON ;_____;

.............. YEAH. UHM. THAT. IT'S SO CANON I CAN'T EVEN. ;) ugh those two idiots. WHY DO I SHIP THEM SO.
(Deleted comment)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> tyrionjanie_tangerine on May 12th, 2012 07:50 pm (UTC)
It was mostly waxing poetical about how much I'm liking the way they're adapting that part of the book. ;) but it wasn't anything mind blowing or worthy of long meta. And yeah, she's just that good! :)

I love Tyrion seriously, he's priceless. I find tv!Cersei generally more sympathetic than book!Cersei at any point but yeah this season they made her more... slightly likable I guess. Or something. Though I'll never be her biggest fan regardless, but. ;)

Heeeee, but at least he might get some! XD

Pfff. Idiots. I mean come on everyone who talkes to Theon for more than ten seconds would realize that he's one of the most manipulable (is that how it's spelled...?) people in that darned bunch and Osha knew that, of course she was playing on it. I don't really get how people can even think that she was being straight with him.