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15 April 2013 @ 02:20 pm
game of thrones 3x03 - the walk of punishment  
(yay I'm doing good at this yes)

Under the cut: book spoilers (also for ADWD) and endless Tully fangirling. Also: if you like Talisa, don't like Jaime and don't like Theon don't bother, thanks so very much. Also: I'm discussing non consensual sexual situations related matters so thread carefully.

1. Okay. Overall: we're doing a lot better than I had expected. BUT, there were a couple of utterly wtf things, so let's get over with them first.

2. Listen, show, I realize that the actress playing Ros needs to do something on here because she has a contract and that you have a naked quota to meet if you want to air (I suppose), but jfc I'm this sick of five minutes of naked women parts paraded around when that scene could last a lot less. And if we really need to have pointless sexposition, can some man that is NOT Alfie Allen (especially this season, because I don't doubt he's gonna get naked but IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES I DON'T EVER WANT TO SEE IT) get naked too for once? Thank you. I mean, at least make it fair and let us poor heterosexual women ogle at naked bits too, yes?

3. Okay, premise: I don't hate Melisandre or anything - she's not my cup of tea in the books but she's not in the list of people I'd like to see dead either - but in this show... is she becoming the Talisa 2.0 with Stannis? Because okay uhm I could more or less explain myself Stannis being mostly OOC in the premiere, but now it looks like he's legitimately attracted to Melisandre and he actually has a *thing* for her and he'd be willing to betray his wife with her because omg he's whipped and... uuuuh.... no? Like, damn, I actually thing that Stannis/Mel was a thing in the books or at least heavily implied, but I always read it as 'he does it because it's the only way he has of gaining power/whatever it is that sleeping with Mel makes him gain' and he doesn't enjoy it or has a thing for Mel or ANYTHING like that so... uuuh... er... no? Again? Like, I'm nowhere near a Stannis expert so I can't really put this in better words but that scene they had reeked of OOC to me.

Oh, also: why does he want Robb and Joffrey dead and not Balon too? Like uh er everyone who hasn't read the book will find it very misleading and it's just going to get Stannis some more hate - can we just not? Damn, I'm not supposed to be worrying about Stannis, wtf.

4. Same as point two re Talisa: listen, I realize Oona has a contract and she has to do something, and I appreciate that at least this round Talisa wasn't near either Robb or Cat and therefore none of them was acting too OOC, but can you stop having her just doing all the good things like being nice to children and etcetera? Like does this woman have ONE flaw? No one in ASOIAF is that perfect ffs. She just sticks out like a sore thumb, ugh.

5. Er uh sorry did I miss the part where Robb was actually in contact with Riverrun? I mean, they don't mention these people for two seasons and the moment they meet Robb is angry at Edmure because he fucked things regarding Gregor Clegane so it was implied that they were actually fighting together? When did they mention that at Riverrun they were fighting for Robb? Did I miss that? Because it just felt like they missed a piece of the story or something.

6. Okay, on to good things. TULLYS. TUUUULLLYYYSSSSSS. I HAD BEEN WANTING THIS SINCE FOREVER BUT DFHKJDSFHDFJHK. Riverrun is perfect. Edmure is perfect (awww you're such a little shit but ilu also for that sjhdaskjk <33333). ALSO OMG THE BLACKFISH IS JUST SO FLAWLESS THE ACTOR IS PERFECT AND THE COSTUME WAS LOVELY AND EVERYTHING HE DID/SAID WAS FLAWLESS AND NO SERIOUSLY PEOPLE THE BLACKFISH IS LIKE IN MY TOP TEN ASOIAF CHARACTERS FOREVER LET ME JUST FLAIL AT THIS :DDDDDDDD \o/

Also, on to serious things: his scene with Cat was veryvery good also because they managed to cram some Tully family history into it and actually they did it pretty well. And OMG CAT. YES. FINALLY. At least someone remembered that Tullys are supposed to be about family, duty and honor? ;) no because YES finally that was a scene I could get behind and yes to everything ;___; seriously the Cat feelings I'm getting this season are something serious. When she broke down in tears about Bran and Rickon I kind of totally died ;__; (and ugh I love that she's still so close to her relatives even if they haven't seen each other in forever ALL MY TULLY FEELINGS)

7. Robb seems fairly back to himself - for the moment. Even if I totally don't get the whole part where he and Edmure had an alliance, but okay. Probably because Talisa wasn't there with her OOC powers, but at least *that's* the Robb Stark I sort of remember. Now if we go on like this I can work with it. More or less.

8. HOT PIE ;____; THAT WAS SUCH A LOVELY SCENE OMG SJDFHSDJKFHSKFH HE GAVE ARYA A WOLF-SHAPED BREAD I CAN'T ;___;

(can we have Sam and Hot Pie ruling Westeros thanks)

9. Jon's scene looked like they put it there so that we don't forget he exists but it totally could have been there last episode tbh. Or in the next.

10. Dany's SL looks better than last year's (yay). That said the main effect it's having on me is making me want to ship Jorah and Barristan.

Just - send help.

11. JAIME.

JAIMEJAIMEJAIME.

AND BRIENNE.

AND JAIME.

First: those two bickering while chained to each other after being captured was priceless. like seriously sure you get captured and YOU BEHAVE LIKE AN OLD MARRIED COUPLE, LOGIC. Also: I'm so fucking glad they kept the scene where Jaime tells her to just go away inside and think of Renly fdskjfhdks I should hope that people who think he's a dick without morals might have started noticing that there's not all there is to him. (I'm so ready for people to jump on his team. I'M SO READY.) But other than that the other scene was doing so very well (even if they pushed it before it actually happen in the book but SEE SHOW, IF YOU MAKE CHANGES THAT STILL MAKE SENSE I'M DOWN WITH THEM YOU KNOW) - ugh between Brienne not following his advice and fighting back (GO BRIENNE) and Jaime saving her ass even if he didn't have to I was about to die in squeeing for how good they did it ;___; also the way they looked at each other when they brought her back jsdfhsdjkf. I shall miss the 'thappireth', but still.

Now, on to serious things: I loved how in the first scene they had Brienne questioning Jaime's skill with swords (which is pretty much the *one* think he thinks he has going for himself) and in the last he effectively has the sword hand cut (UGH WHEN HE SCREAMED DDDDDD:) after he gets told that he's nothing without his family name - sorry Jaime, your brother had better luck when he talked his way out of imprisonment - but seriously when they went from Jaime being all satisfied that he managed to get somehow free-ish to OPS SORRY THAT WAS YOUR HAND WELL IT'S NOT ANYMORE I think my heart broke DDD: JAIMEEE. D: if next week I have the 'don't be so craven' conversation I'll probably just die in squee and forgive them a lot of crap they still seem to be wanting to pull but seriously I'm so so glad that they're getting this part as right as it goes.

Also HOW DID THEY DO THE CASTING SO WELL UGH. I'm in love with their acting ;___;

(also WHERE CAN I BUY THAT VERSION OF THE BEAR AND THE MAIDEN FAIR)

12. On to less squeeful-ish things.

Theon.

Haha. All right. Uh. I still think I'm mildly sick, though not in the bad way - I mean, I was spoiled for the attempted rape and the rest, but if someone doesn't give Alfie awards this season it's a travesty. I wanted to vomit mostly because *he* sounded like he wanted to vomit, during that specific scene. ugh.

Anyway, that said: I've read some opinions around which are all more or less like 'it was unnecessary/gross' 'what the fuck are they doing' 'why is this happening it wasn't in the book'. Now: nothing that happens between now and next season was in the book anyway if you don't count Theon reminiscing about things in ADWD and not even doing it in detail (thank fuck), so obviously they're going to have to come up with plausible shit that might have gone down other than the few things we know for sure (also it's not like this guy can turn into Reek in ONE WEEK ffs). (Also I sincerely hope that Theon's ADWD stuff begins next season because I can't possibly take TWO seasons of torturing. Okay, that stated.) Also: in ADWD it said pretty clearly that Theon tried to escape more than once (one was with Kyra but I'm pretty sure he mentioned others) and that each time he was *hunted* down. At this point, since book!Ramsay *did* set him free just to get him back all over again... well, if show!Ramsay frees him, sends his men after him and then kills them all just so that he can gain Theon's trust and fuck him over even worse, then it seems perfectly coherent to me. Like, book!Ramsay totally would have done that. (Also the Bolton man telling him 'you little bastard' probably meant that they had no clue that he would/could *kill* them, which still makes total sense to me. Also YAY FOR CONFIRMATION THAT THE GUY IS IN FACT RAMSAY - well I didn't have doubts but I'm reading theories about him not being really Ramsay and I'm totally not buying them. Not to mention the 'WINTER IS COMING' UUGGGGHHHHHHHH DON'T DO THIS TO ME.) The attempted raping... well, it wasn't really clear if it had been Ramsay ordering it or no (doesn't matter since he would have killed the other men regardless), but considering that a) in ADWD there's a texual scene where Ramsay *does* rape Theon even if he doesn't technically touch him [as far as we saw] [Ramsay's wedding night if anyone's wondering] b) I'm 99,9% sure that it was implied that it had happened before during the part that we didn't see, and considering that doing *that* to Theon (who always thought that his prowess in bed was proof of his worth which just says everything) is pretty much the worst thing you could do to him... well, I don't entirely see it as unnecessarily gross. It didn't happen (for now), but it set the mood because it's probably going to happen later and it's going to be much worse, not to mention that if they go the whole way with Ramsay's creepiness and his thing about Theon being *just his* then it's just going to make more twisted sense later (since he wouldn't let others do it). And other than that... er, every episode including Theon from now on is probably going to outgross the one before so I suppose I'm ready not to be surprised at anything. I'm also ready to feel like vomiting every time he has screen time, but that's another point entirely. D:

I also sincerely hope I don't run into anyone saying that he deserved it or that it was funny because it was everything but. D: the thing is that as far as it is, and considering that they didn't introduce Ramsay in S2, they're handling this storyline very plausibly (seeing ADWD) so I can't even be angry at them. I'll just go and write fluff fic for the rest of the season. DDDD: also: I'll officially never be able to see Misfits. I'd probably cower in fear every time Iwan Rheon's face showed up. :/

13. In conclusion: the good parts were *veryvery good*, the wtf parts were absolutely pointless but the good mostly outweighed the WTF, and it looks like they have a better grasp of what they're doing than last season. But that stated I'm really this close to be done with all the gratuitous sexposition.

Then again, as long as I keep the Blackfish forever I can deal with the rest.
 
 
feeling: crushedcrushed
 
 
 
goldenusagigoldenusagi on April 15th, 2013 02:55 pm (UTC)
I so want to read your review, but, book spoilers, so I won't. lol
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> jaime 1.0janie_tangerine on April 15th, 2013 02:59 pm (UTC)
lol last year I tried to spoiler-cut the spoilers but this year I realized I can't keep the book spoilers away so I didn't even try /o\ that said the only spoiler-heavy point is 12, but half of the stuff I'm talking about in the others is still book-comparison I think ):
falafel_musings: six feetfalafel_musings on April 15th, 2013 05:49 pm (UTC)
Theon's endless torment is starting to remind me of the girl in the 'White Bear' episode of 'Black Mirror'. Whatever crimes Theon has committed the senseless inhuman cruelty is so horrible and unjustifiable. The psychological torture is maybe even worse than the physical torture. I kinda wish Robb would just arrive and cut off Theon's head because it would seem more merciful. :(

Also, nooo! I didn't want to say goodbye to Hotpie!
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on April 15th, 2013 06:00 pm (UTC)
DDDDD: the thing is... be braced. From now on it's going to get worse. In the sense that what we've seen until now will be like tap water in comparison to the rest. D: I thought I was ready for it since I've had two years to wrap my head around it, but.. I think I'm nowhere near ready, oops. And yeah, the psychological is so much worse DDDDDD: and yeah, word. At that point Robb doing that would have been a lot more merciful, but we aren't going to be that lucky. (And Theon won't either. D:)

ME NEITHER. HOT PIE IS AWESOME. D:
(Deleted comment)
the female ghost of tom joad: !!! <3janie_tangerine on April 15th, 2013 09:50 pm (UTC)
♥ ikrrr let's not forget that he wanted to *** with YOU KNOW WHO sorry don't mind me
falafel_musingsfalafel_musings on April 15th, 2013 10:10 pm (UTC)
Well yeah. When it comes down to it they can torture Theon forever if that's what it takes to keep Alfie Allen on the show.
(Deleted comment)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> jaime/brijanie_tangerine on April 15th, 2013 09:52 pm (UTC)
Actually Arya/Hot Pie was an excellent ship. I could totally get behind it too if it ever was a thing. ;) (right now I'm also on the 'let's just put Hot Pie and Sam in charge' ship too, but that's another thing entirely) ... THEY MEET AGAIN AND HOT PIE GOES TO WORK IN THE KITCHENS AT A REBUILT WINTERFELL IT IS KNOWN. I don't accept anything else.

Look them up on youtube, I'm pretty sure someone will put the scenes there soon. They *were* perfect! Or well, as close to perfect as they could be with the previous changes, but they're pretty much the one thing other than the Blackfish that I'm 100% down with watching forever right now.
The Cleaverage: Winchesters of the Deadkel_reiley on April 16th, 2013 04:20 am (UTC)
2. OMG YES.

3. OMG YES. Like, I'm not a Stannis fan, but they are ruining him.
'he does it because it's the only way he has of gaining power/whatever it is that sleeping with Mel makes him gain' - it's not just you, that is totally how I read it as well. I'm really disappointed that they completely wrote out his daughter with the grey... disease (can't remember what they called it) and her fool, too.

4. No one in ASOIAF is that perfect ffs. Right? That was why I loved it so much - all of the characters had shades of gray, nothing was black and white, and the ones who saw it in black and white (Ned! biggest of all) didn't last long.

6. ♥ BLACKFISH ♥

8. HOT PIE! "It's really good!"

11. FLAWLESS.

12. I just... really really do not want to see any of the torture Theon will endure. NONE. And I do not approve of the casting of Ramsay. He needs to be way creepier and gross, and I love Iwan Rheon too much to accept this! (I am sad that it's ruined Misfits for you before you ever got to see it, b/c Misfits was AWESOME.)

13. The sexpositioning has got to stop. Fr srs.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> jaime/brienne 3.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 08:55 am (UTC)
2. IKR? I mean okay naked people, I get it, BUT CAN SOME MAN OTHER THAN ALFIE GET NAKED POOR BABY KEEPS ON TAKING ONE FOR THE TEAM! Right, probably NCW will have to get naked shortly for the bath scene, but that won't be gratuitous naked man bits so it doesn't count.

3. I *like* Stannis in the sense that while he's not my favorite I do appreciate the character and tbh he's the only one of the people in the run right now that I'd like to see winning, but I'm nowhere near a patented PR - but seriously WHAT THE FUCK. Also I've seen some picture of his daughter so she's apparently showing up at some point but like MENTIONING HER BEFORE - idek, I need to find some Stannis fan to ask them to put it in more sensed terms, but I really don't feel the changes.

4. Me too tbh :/ what the fuck is with that Mary Sue, please give me back Jeyne Westerliiinggg ;____;

6. IKR BLACKFISH LOVE OF MY LIFE LIGHT OF THIS WORLD THAT IS DARK AND FULL OF TERRORS ♥

8. I KNOWWW <333 *DRAWS HEARTS FOREVER*

11. I know? I just - JAIME AND BRIEEENNEEEEEE

12. Haha. Me neither tbh. I don't want to see a second of it, but I understand why they're showing it (considering that 80% of the viewers hates him and that they'd probably forget about him if they left him out for two seasons, if he shows up the way he did in ADWD it'd be confusing at best). The only hope I have is that people who are all like 'he deserves it!' or 'OMG THEON/RAMSAY HOW CUTE!' will.. er, change their mind when it becomes worse/more gross/more horrible? :/// also lol well I think that IR is being creepy enough but I also haven't seen him in anything else xD and daaamn everyone recced me that show left and right D: maybe at some point I'll try just to see if I can forget that he plays Ramsay? D:

13. THAT. Or at least sexpose some men too ffs. I'm still disappointed that Bronn never got naked in the premiere. *has priorities*
The Cleaverage: Winchesters of the Deadkel_reiley on April 16th, 2013 05:02 pm (UTC)
3. Huh. I had thought at one point in the show they said Stannis had no children, but maybe they just meant no sons.

12. Theon/Ramsay? EW EW EW NO. And there's no Jeyne Poole either, so WTF? They cannot possibly think people are going to mistake Ros for Arya. That's stupid.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 08:15 pm (UTC)
3. They said no sons. But there's definitely a still floating around so Shireen is showing up at some point..

12. Yep. It's a thing. Well, it was a thing also after ADWD but it was people shipping it for the dirtybadwrong, now it's crawling with people who didn't read the book and don't know that Ramsay is *Ramsay*, so... haha. I can't. I couldn't even when it was just people shipping it for the dirtybadwrong, so.... aaand no idea. I mean, I thought that they might have Ros there as some gift LF sends Ramsay because YAY ALLIANCES so they'd scrap the part where she's supposed to marry him, but they still need Ramsay to marry SOMEONE WHO PASSES FOR ARYA otherwise Jon doesn't make the NW revolt and that has to happen, not to mention that if there's not the Arya-who-isn't-Arya thing you lose all the identity business going on with her and Theon, so.. no clue. I still hope they manage to make Jeyne or SOMEONE ELSE AT RANDOM show out of the blue. Possibly not being Ros, since she makes no sense. :/
The Cleaveragekel_reiley on April 16th, 2013 09:40 pm (UTC)
Exactly. I mean, Theon *might* remember Ros, but it wouldn't mean anything. Not the way it did when Jeyne was supposed to be Arya and he remembered who she was from their time at Winterfell.

Ugh! I mean, I guess they have to show what happens but I just do not want to see any Theon stuff through all that. I just can't.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theonjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 09:45 pm (UTC)
Meh if it's Ros they could play the fact that he sorta liked her once upon a time but.. the point is that he saves Jeyne doing a total selfless thing for someone he barely knows and certainly didn't *like* in that sense, if you turn it into a love story it's ten times less effective :/

Yeah same. I had enough in the book and it was just referenced, I SO TOTALLY DON'T NEED IT LIVE ACTION.
The Cleaveragekel_reiley on April 16th, 2013 09:50 pm (UTC)
he saves Jeyne doing a total selfless thing for someone he barely knows and certainly didn't *like* in that sense, if you turn it into a love story it's ten times less

Yes, that.
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 11:13 am (UTC)
Yay, I finally found time to read your review! :) And I have a few things to say again (mostly to agree with you).

2) Ugh... Couldn't agree more. Ros being there was just so fucking pointless. And that other scene with Tyrion giving Pod a bunch of whores (oh god, what even was that last one who was super elastic or whatever?!! I seriously went O_o ). Stop corrupting baby Pod, Tyrion, he needs to be a bumbling adorable virgin, ok?! That scene was seriously so pointless. I mean, it seems to me that it was hinted there was something shady about those girls, because they didn't accept payment, but maybe that was nothing? Either way, I'm getting sick of all the naked women too (and this is coming from a slightly bisexual person, jfc!) Last week's episode was actually refreshing in the sense that there were no boobs, but I guess it couldn't last and we're back to showing naked women again. I want some men. sigh

3) I don't really hate Mel in the books, either. Like, I see where she's coming from and stuff. But show!Mel annoys me to no end. She's just so much bitchier (she wasn't in this episode, but just overall). And omg, yes, they ARE ruining show!Stannis, it's not just you imagining things. I was cringing so hard at the part where he was all hot and bothered by her. HE'S NOT LIKE THAT IN THE BOOKS AT ALL!! I feel like he's kind of using her for his own purposes (just like she is using him for hers) and definitely not in the way the show is portraying. I mean, jfc, he doesn't want to bang her all the freaking time!! Just... no. Also, this is coming from someone who isn't the biggest Stannis fan, anyway. I think he's pretty ok in the books, but in the show, I feel like I only tolerate him for Davos' sake, I s2g! -__-;

4) Oh my god, don't mention that scene to me. Ever. UUUGHH!!! That scene has got to be the most pointless scene in existence. It seriously accomplished nothing. What was the fucking purpose of it?! >__> It was a waste of airtime, tbh. They could have shown some naked men (since they like showing naked people so much) instead and it would have been less pointless than that. I have to say I didn't really hate Talisa in the beginning. I didn't like her, but I was kind of indifferent. But now she just gets on my nerves all the damn time. ugh

5) and 7) Idk, I still didn't like Robb in that scene. While I do like the fact that he showed some strategic common sense and told his uncle off for ruining things, it actually makes him look like a bit of hypocrite. As in, he gets all mad when someone messes up, but when HE does it (by freaking marrying Talisa and breaking important alliances on the way), it's all fine. And he gets mad when people bring it up (as if his mistakes are ok, but the mistakes of other people aren't). Ugh, I hate what they've done with Robb in the show.

1/3
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 11:15 am (UTC)
6) Remember how I said that I didn't care about the Tyrells in the books, but the show made me love them and how I feel the same may happen with the Tullys? Well, IT'S ALREADY FREAKING HAPPENED. Omg, they're awesome! :DDD I think I need to go reread the chapters they're in. I think I'm in love with Edmure and the Blackfish is freaking amazing! :D x3
But yeah, that scene with him and Cat by the window... ;__; It legit made me teary-eyed, especially when Cat said "I'm never gonna see [Bran and Rickon] again" because it's true and it fucking hurts. D': And then the Blackfish telling her she has to believe and be strong, ughh. ;__;

8) Omg, don't talk to me about that scene!! ;__; Because while the Cat scene made me teary-eyed, the goodbye between Hot Pie and Arya actually made me cry. Particularly when they already left and then she yells "It's really good!" back at Hot Pie AND THAT MADE ME SO FUCKING SAD, like NOOOOO!!! ;___; I wanted the trio to stay together at least a little bit longer. Also, for some reason, I feel like in the book the departure happened much later and that it was both Gendry and Hot Pie that stayed at an inn/forge at the same time. Or am I remembering things wrong?
Yes to Sam and hot Pie ruling together, though! :D

9) Yeah, I don't think much was happening with Jon, lol. I think the point of that scene was just so the audience saw that Mance decided to attack the Night's Watch and sent Tormund, Jon (and some others) to climb the wall. Basically, nothing exciting yet.

10) Yeah, nothing that exciting happening with Dany yet, either, but I loved the scene where she's all like "I have dragons. I'll give you one," and both Barristan and Jorah lose their shit. xD And I kinda can't wait for what's coming, because Dany being badass with Drogon = YES PLZ

11) OMG, I AM SO HAPPY THAT THEY KEPT ALL OF THAT STUFF IN!! God, I am seriously so fucking happy with how they're handling their story, because while there are minor changes, all the important stuff is basically following the books and there's no character assassination/bodysnatching going on!! JAIME AND BRIENNE ARE PERFECT AND ANYONE'S ARGUMENT IS INVALID. I absolutely loved every scene they were in. :DD I'd say more, but it's hard to describe perfection, so yeah~

2/3
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 11:16 am (UTC)
12) I pretty much agree with everything you said here. =/ I don't think I've ever been so conflicted about any character/storyline ever. Like, I don't think I'd able to survive if Theon was just missing from the show for two seasons (I want to see him on my screen), but this is actually even worse because seeing him suffer like this and knowing much worse things are on the way is making me sick. As in, I do want to see it, but I don't. DDD: Like you said, though, everything that's happening to him is totally plausible (because in the books we don't know everything in detail). And yes, Ramsay pulling something like this is totally in character for him. I wonder what next episode's conversation between them will be like. =/ I mean, from the spoilers we read, we know that Theon will tell him everything that's happened in Winterfell and stuff, but we don't know in what way he's going to do that. Like, I'm afraid it's going to be emotional. As in, Theon kind of pouring his heart out (possibly along with voicing his doubts and regrets about burning the boys and/or betraying Robb?) to the only person he trusts right now. Seriously, if that conversation is a sentimental one, I'm going to fling myself out my window. That would be the worst. Because ugh, just imagine Theon opening up to the person who's going to do unspeakable things to him. I already feel like crying tears of blood when I'm just thinking about it (and I don't even know if the conversation will take that turn, jfc).
But maybe the Ramsay reveal will make the show-only audience sympathize more with Theon? Because when you think about it, the people who haven't read the books and/or spoilers have no idea Ramsay is, well, RAMSAY. They think he's this good guy, helping a tortured person escape, even saving him from getting raped, etc. And then suddenly BAM! The good guy goes "jk, I'm actually responsible for you torture and will now torture you some more just for my own sick twisted pleasure." So basically, it's not just Theon that gets fooled and betrayed, but also the audience, in a way. Maybe that will make it easier for them to kind of put themselves into Theon's shoes (regarding the betrayal at least)?

I guess that's all for now. JAIME AND BRIENNE though!! asdkjdsnflasgng!! Sorry, I had to mention them again.

3/3
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 11:40 am (UTC)
Me too :/ I think that having him disappear would have been a stupid move because that stuff doesn't work on TV and especially for a character that 80% of the audience doesn't like, so they had to keep him in, but ffjkhgkdj I don't want to see him suffer, also because I suspect that what we've seen until now was nothing in comparison to what's in store DDDD: and from what we know it doesn't seem to me that they're going overboard - shit I doubt they *could* go overboard since just seeing the result of the torturing in the book was beyond gross, anything goes by this point. Ew. And yeah I totally share the same worries about that conversation - like, obviously Theon trusts him by now and he's like the *only* supposed friend he has at the moment not to mention that he's in some seriously bad emotional state. So he'll probably go spill everything very emotionally and Ramsay is TOTALLY going to use that against him later (.... ;__;) and considering that from what I gathered we find out that Ramsay is Ramsay next episode HE'S ALSO GOING TO HAVE TO FIND OUT THAT HE HAD BEEN TOYED WITH ALL ALONG AND UGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH NOPE. I. CAN'T. JUST. NO. ;___; (I'm also 100% positive that the finale will have Ramsay telling him about the RW and I'll pretty much kill myself at that point, but that's another thing entirely X:X)

And yeah hopefully AT LEAST THAT? Since some people still did-not-get-it maybe it could be like the last chance they have to realize that he didn't really mean to do all of that? D: and yeah that too - ugh on tumblr it's already starting with the people who are like 'omg the cute dude from Misfits saved Theon AWWW I SHIP IT' and I'm already starting to cringe, so at least it's gonna hopefully die soon? Like, if people ship it for what it is and knowing the books good for them as long as I don't ever have to see it, but when they don't know it's... just... ew. *cringes*

BUT JAIME AND BRIENNE ;)
The_Crazy_Freak: Theon normalthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 01:25 pm (UTC)
I actually think you're right and what we've seen up 'till now is nothing. :SS Because if you think about it, none of the things we read in the Reek chapters have actually happened yet (like flaying his fingers until he begs him to cut them off). DD: I think that's probably because they want to show Ramsay himself doing those things (and not his subordinates). I feel like they truly tortured Theon purely for the purpose of extracting information from him, whereas Ramsay will do it for his own pleasure (because he's going to HAVE all the info anyways, since Theon will tell him before he reveals his true self). So yeah, I'm pretty sure the TRULY gruesome stuff hasn't even started yet (and I couldn't even bear to look at the torture we already got - not sure I'm gonna be able to deal with what's coming). :S

Yes, that's exactly what I was afraid of. God, I need to brace myself for the next episode. ;__; It's going to be very emotionally unstable for me. I feel like that might actually be the very last scene in the last episode - the reveal of Ramsay. Because the audience is gonna be like "omg, no fucking way :OO" - in a total state of shock. And you know GoT loves to leave the audience in a state of shock (like they did with Jaime's hand this week).

Omg, I haven't even thought about the RW in context with Theon. Oh god... ;____; nope

Oh god, I didn't really venture into the part of tumblr that ships them yet. But, I mean, I can totally see it (for the people who only watch the show and don't read spoilers). They think he's a nice guy and he helped him, so of course some people will be like "omg, I ship it". Now that I think about it (and this painful for me to admit), if I hadn't read the books and didn't know who Ramsay was, I might be like "oh, he's sweet" too (and since I always kinda liked Theon anyway, he'd probably immediately be in my good books for helping him). All I can say is - thank god I read the books, because I wouldn't want to be one of those people who think the guy is great (and even ship him with Theon), only to find out that he's far from that (quite the opposite). ugh
But do people who have read the books really ship Theon/Ramsay though? O_o
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> the NW does it rightjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 08:26 pm (UTC)
On one side I doubt they'll be going as far as it went in the book - seriously, you can't ask a 27 year-old guy to pull a De Niro on everyone and starve himself until he looks like a sixty year old dude - but on the other we won't get spared any grossness I fear. D: (also because if they were willing to show the almost-rape then they'll most definitely be willing to show it if it happens with Ramsay, and since I'm the first person saying that I'm 99% sure it was a thing in the book I can't even complain. Sigh. Let's not get into the flaying part....) And yeah exactly I'm not even sure Ramsay ever gave a shit about the info in the first place anyway - he was probably just overjoyed to have someone to dump all his sadism on. Also someone who was already fucked up in the first place. Ew. And yeah I'm already this ready do be done now, THERE'S NOTHING ELSE I NEED TO SEE UUGGGHHHH.

Yeah knowing them I can bet money it's going to be the last scene. Damn, this almost makes me look forward to Jaime having to vomit the horse piss because at least that part gets better... DDD: and hahah. My personal headcanon is that Theon had the full mental breakdown when he was told about the RW so FIGURE HOW HAPPY I'LL BE IF I FIND OUT THAT D&D HAVE THE SAME HEADCANON AS I DO. ... the problem is that until now it seems like we're mostly agreeing.........

I only see what happens on the Theon tag and I have like five filters for anything that might show me Ramsay's name so I'm usually pretty covered, but when they don't mention the name because they don't know it yet and they're all like 'omg how cute' I just cringe in secondhand embarrassment. If I hadn't known before I'd probably be on it too but SINCE I KNOW I'M JUST CRINGING because if I fell for it I'd be backpedaling like crazy come next week.

Aaand uhm. Yeah. Most of them/the ones who usually properly tag it (from what I gather - I know a couple because they do an exchange fic that I do as well even if we rarely cross paths because of obvious different interests in shipping XDDD) are into it because of the dirtybadwrong so at least it's not romantic shipping aaand while I don't really get it and never will (I mean, the most dirtybadwrong thing I ship in asoiaf is Sandor/Sansa so what do I know) as long as I don't have to see it their business. But once, before I knew tumblr savior existed, I actually read someone saying that they were fascinated by the relationship and the dynamic (... okay until now) and that well obviously 'THEON WASN'T INTO IT AT THE BEGINNING BUT THEN HE REALIZES IT WAS THE KIND OF RELATIONSHIP HE NEEDED' and I think I had a moment of 'I can't list all the ways in which this is really fucking wrong' DDD: like seriously what the hell. :/
The_Crazy_Freak: Theon 1the_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 09:37 pm (UTC)
I was just discussing this with a friend the other day and we pretty much agree with that. I don't think they'll make him wear a grey wig or make him lose any weight or anything (I don't even think they'll make Theon lose any of his teeth, let alone most of them). But honestly, that is one deviation from the book I'm more than fine with. It's bad enough that they'll probably show the finger chopping, etc. :SSS
I may have worded it wrong. I don't think Ramsay ever cared about the info, either. I think his subordinates/servants (the ones who were doing the torturing) were TOLD by Ramsay that they're doing it for info (and so they themselves did it for info, not necessarily for the pleasure). Ramsay, on the other hand... He definitely did it for his own enjoyment. What I meant when I said he won't be doing it for info (because Theon will have told him everything by then), I was kind of talking from the show-only audience's perspective. Like, the audience won't be able to say "he's only torturing him because he wants information". They'll have to admit that he's a sadistic psycho. As in, the audience won't have any excuses to "justify" Theon's torture (like so many people like to do, ugh >__>)

Speaking of that, I forgot to add this the last time. Sometimes I look up GoT reviews on Youtube and today I found two that justified stuff like that. One of the reviews was actually pretty decent and objective UNTIL the part where they mentioned Theon (this was for episode 2, btw). The woman basically said "Theon's torture was pretty gruesome to watch, but to be honest, he did deserve it," and the man just agreed with her and then she even added "It'll probably be horrible to watch, but at least it'll make us happy since it's Theon". And this wasn't coming just from a random fan, this was on a channel that does stuff a bit more professionally, if you know what I mean. I was beyond pissed off. >__> Not to mention that the woman then also said she was probably one of the few people that liked Talisa. They basically lost me at those two points. >__>
The other review was from a guy that only watches the show and it was about this week's episode. I was only half paying attention, so I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think he said anything like that about Theon. He did, however, say that he's glad they cut Jaime's hand off "because the guy deserved it - he killed my nigga Ned". Um... no. I facepalmed.

Nooo, why did you bring that up?! DD: I was perfectly fine not thinking about the RW in connection to Theon and now this headcanon of yours... ;___; I obviously don't have any headcanons about that but, omg, what if they DO go that way in the show?! That would kill me.

Well, I mean, I don't like to judge other people based on their ships, so let them ship what they want, I guess. As long as they only ship it within fictional realms and don't actually condone any of that stuff IRL. But when someone says that Theon "then realizes it was the kind of relationship he needed", then I'm gonna question this person's sanity tbh. Because wtf?! O_o
Btw, I also saw that pile of tweets you reblogged. It made me want to punch something. >__>

Edited at 2013-04-16 09:39 pm (UTC)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> robb/theon 4.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 09:55 pm (UTC)
Nah exactly they can't have him change his freaking physical appearance until *that*. But yeah between the flaying, cutting fingers and possibly knocking off some teeth (hopefully not all)... yeaaahhriiightthatwouldbenoughthanks. I'm totally okay if they change it, really. The 'he looks like a sixty year old' is probably the thing that disgusts me most so CHANGES FTW REALLY.

And yeah ops sorry I got it wrong, yep I totally think that he played the guards too and that they all thought they were getting info but obviously the masterplan is just Ramsay's thing. And yeah I hope it goes like that for the audience but I still read some stuff on forums at times where they're like 'I hope that Ramsay captures him again because he still totally deserves it' so I suppose some people just don't give a shit as long as this poor guy is miserable? :/

... okay, if you like Talisa AND think Theon deserved it you're totally lost to me ;) and wtf ouch seriously can people just stop thinking that torturing people is justified in any context? I just . I can't even with those people X_X

also sorry how did Jaime kill Ned? Okay well he put a sword in his leg but HOW DID JAIME KILL NED that was all Joffrey/Littlefinger WTFFFF HOW. Not to mention that I always thought that Ned should have totally been less of an ass to Jaime considering that er Jaime had killed Aerys also because he saw Ned's father and his brother roasted alive in front of him, hhhmmmm. BUT OF COURSE SINCE JAIME IS A BAD PERSON LET'S ALSO SAY THAT HE KILLED NED, WTF. Of all the crap I've heard people say when I tell them that I like Jaime nothing ever was as bad as this. xD

... sorry. I swear I didn't mean it. Sorry. ;____;

Me neither - I mean, as long as you think that doing that IRL isn't cool then whatever go do your thing just don't make me see it. But IKR THAT PERSON I just - how is that the kind of relationship he needed...? I mean I could argue for hours about the fact that probably he'd want to feel like he actually belongs to *someone* if not *somewhere* but... an abusive relationship based on brainwashing where you aren't even allowed to keep your identity and you've been mutilated by the other person doesn't sound like that to me? not to mention that OPS WAIT 'I should have been with Robb' anyone? He already had it, no need to bring Ramsay into it - great, I just made myself depressed again

those tweets look like assholes central, don't they =_=
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 10:22 pm (UTC)
Tbh, when reading the books, I just blocked that part from my mind. Like, I still imagined him as a young guy (and only with like, maybe 2 teeth missing at most). I don't think my brain was able to process the fact that a 22-year-old (is he 22? I actually don't remember) looks 60. So I rarely ever think about that part. =/

Ugh, there will always be those types of people. >__>

My thoughts exactly. I actually wanted to comment on that, but the guy disabled comments, lol. I wonder if he got shit for stuff and that's why he did it. I also remember him saying how he doesn't understand why Jaime would save Brienne from rape/death, because "he hasn't shown any redeeming qualities so far". And that him saving Brienne was OOC. Ugh, just... no fucking comment. (I mean, I guess you could argue that this guy hasn't read the books, but come on, that's no excuse)

That is exactly what Theon yearned for - he wanted to BELONG and he wanted to be ACCEPTED. I think this is why I never really hated him (like, even pre-ADWD he was in my top 10 Asoiaf characters list). Because I could actually somewhat relate to him on that level (the level of feeling like you don't belong). Imagine being taken from your home at the age of 8, by the people who killed your 2 brothers no less. You're then forced to grow up with those people and while they don't exactly treat you badly, there's always that threat that they will kill you, because hey, you're not actually their adopted son, but a fucking prisoner. And you basically don't belong anywhere anymore. You'll never TRULY be a part of this adoptive-prisoner family, but you're not quite a part of your own blood family either. And none of those people will ever FULLY accept you. You'll never be good enough for any of them. So yeah. Theon is flawed and misguided, but it's coming from a place of hurt and confusion (and the feeling of never being good enough - thus the need to "prove himself") and I don't get how people don't see that. And it's not like he never felt conflicted/guilty, unlike a lot of other characters in the books who don't get nearly as much hate as Theon does.

Also, that "I should have been with Robb at the wedding. I should have died with him," line absolutely killed me. ;______;

Edited at 2013-04-16 10:24 pm (UTC)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theonjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 10:41 pm (UTC)
Yep. He's 22. And I read ADWD like the month before I turned 23, which...thinking that he was my age was so disturbing I couldn't even fathom how people could actively say they were happy about him getting his due. Like wtf NOPE. Never. Can't.

Also sorry but if you think that all there is to Jaime is being an ass who throws children off windows then you didn't even watch the show because they gave more than enough hints that there's more to it. And ffs haha OOC SURE. Did he hear that dialogue on the horse or what? I can't. People who can't accept that Jaime is more complicated than 'kills people fucks his sister' in my chart are just slightly better than the 'Theon deserves it' team -_-

ALSO YES TO ALL OF THAT. Apparently some people don't see the not-so-fine line between belonging and someone actually *owning* you without your consent/down to your basic functions, but... Seriously, how is Ramsay supposedly good for Theon is something that shouldn't even be a subject of discussion, let alone people actually thinking it's a thing. And tbh the fact that Theon just wanted to belong someplace and got the extrapervertedtwistednotconsensual version of it is horrifying, not good for him DDDD: (that line was the beginning of my downfall into the pit of Robb/Theon, other than.. Well, until then during Theon's chapters I mostly was like EW NO EW, at that point I just went and started sobbing, ooops. I never quite recovered from it. Just - I can't with it and everything it implies ;___; it probably says all that his relationship with Robb was probably the healthiest he ever had.... D:)
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 11:05 pm (UTC)
Same tbh. A while ago I read some wonderful essay someone wrote on Jaime and it was exactly how I myself saw him and it was just perfect. And I don't get how people don't see him that way. Are some people just incapable of looking past the surface or?

"And tbh the fact that Theon just wanted to belong someplace and got the extrapervertedtwistednotconsensual version of it is horrifying, not good for him" <-- Ugh, exactly! That's actually the worst thing that could happen to him. I mean, it's obviously absolutely horrifying for ANYONE, but especially so for someone like Theon. :SSS
Yeah, the relationship with Robb WAS the healthiest he had. :( ;__;

the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> robbjanie_tangerine on April 17th, 2013 09:13 am (UTC)
I suppose it requires too much effort? Like, there's people that after five books are still 'BUT JAIME THREW BRAN OFF A WINDOW AND FUCKED HIS SISTER!!!1!!' and 'THEON STILL DESERVED IT!' so they obviously refuse to see past the surface or I don't even know. Like, there's more to them than that. =__=''''

Like sure thing have all that happen to him when he's already saddled with issues GO AHEAD NO PROBLEM *CRIES* (like I doubt that someone... er, more stable, if that's even the right word, would have been that thoroughly fucked up to the extent f *forgetting who they were* D: which only makes the whole thing with Jeyne even more poignant and when people say that 'but it was one thing it doesn't make up for the rest of the shit he did' I just go like 'way to miss the point you'. =_=)

When your healthiest relationship is with the son of a guy who could kill you at any moment it's proof that you should be a go for posting on FML.com I think *laughs so that she doesn't cry* ;___;
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 17th, 2013 10:03 am (UTC)
I decided to check out the Theon tag (for the first time, I think; I rarely ever use tags in general) and I can finally see what you mean when you say there are some seriously annoying people on there. >__>

This doesn't have anything to do with Theon, but I wanted to mention it anyway: I saw the Stannis post you reblogged earlier and I wanted to thank you, because I think I needed to read that to kind of "restore my faith" in the character after the way he's been acting on the show. :)

Edited at 2013-04-17 10:04 am (UTC)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> davos/stannisjanie_tangerine on April 17th, 2013 10:08 am (UTC)
Meh, looking at the general tag is probably an act of masochism. I keep on doing it just because in theory when going on someone's tag it shouldn't be crawling with annoying and I refuse to be driven from it because it is (if it makes sense), but the Theon one is assholes central pretty much half of the time. =_=''

WASN'T THAT META AWESOME? ;__; it was like 70% of why I'm totally fond of book!Stannis but put in better words, lol. but yeah if the shows keeps on fucking up at least we have the books? also seriously after reading that meta I just want fluff fic where Davos hugs him or something WHAT
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 17th, 2013 10:19 am (UTC)
Yeah. >_> I mean, when you see posts titled "Theon Greyjoy, you piece of shit" you basically just wanna leave. -__-;

OMG, YES! :DD But seriously, compare book!Stannis to show!Stannis when it comes to this quote: One of my favorite parts of the series is when Stannis and Davos are reunited after Blackwater, and Stannis says "I missed you, ser". <-- This is what book!Stannis said/did. Show!Stannis said "I thought you were dead" and threw him in the dungeons. The difference is quite big.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> jaime/brienne 4.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 11:33 am (UTC)
6) YESSSS FOR BEING ON TEAM TULLY ;) welcome, we have lovely fried fish to offer ;) ;) they're amaaaziiinggg. I love everything Tully in the world ;__; and I still maintain that between Davos and the Blackfish they have 95% of the mental sanity in Westeros but other than that I just love those people so much ;__; and yess that scene he had with Cat was perfect ;____; fdjhsfkj MY TULLY FEELINGS, THEY CRUSH ME.

8) I knowwww it was ridiculously sad ;___; and yeah they're pushing things forward, in the book they didn't split up until like a good third into it? Still. I WANTED THEM TOGETHER LONGER D:

Shhh you know that Sam & Hot Pie would be the best-ticket-ever. MORE BREAD AND BOOKS FOR EVERYONE!

9) Yeah exactly, but imo they could have totally put it in some episode where Jon actually did something other than staring at the snow xDDD

10) HAHAHAH THAT WAS WHEN I DECIDED I WANTED SOMEONE WRITING JORAH/BARRISTAN TBH XDD THEY WERE HILARIOUS. <3

11) IKR OMG DGHFDKJGKDFJGHKFD THAT'S HOW THEY SHOULD DO EVERYTHING MY FEELINGS EVERYTHING JAIME AND BRIEEEENNNEEEEEE <333333333333333 my otp >>> every other otp ;)
The_Crazy_Freak: Fuck Yeah - Althe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 01:06 pm (UTC)
6) But how funny was that scene when Edmure kept missing his shots and then the Blackfish just goes and grabs it from him and gets it done. xD And it was in the books as well. I'm really glad they kept that. :)

8) Food and books is all I need, tbh! That's why they're perfect! And if someone made wolf-bread for me, I'd marry them immediately. :D

the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> jon/samjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 08:31 pm (UTC)
Hahaha ikr my poor precious baby trout <3 Edmure is priceless even in his complete and utter failing. BUT HE TRIES! XD

EXACTLY. Wolf-bread for everyone starving, more books around, less asshole-ness, actually smart people in charge (because seriously everyone overlooks it because of reasons I'll never get but if we don't count witty-smart people ie Tyrion, Sam has possibly the most functional darned brain in Westeros, if he only put it to use fully all the time it'd be a better place), WHAT ELSE CAN WE WANT?
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> robb 3.0janie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 11:29 am (UTC)
2) exactly. like, if she's supposed to spy shit for LF can't she.. well, do that? if they need to justify having the actress on payroll make her do something other than fucking getting naked, ughhh. Not going into the super elastic prostitute too X___X I figured that maybe the 'they don't want to get paid' shit was about LF so maybe it has an overall point, but THEY DIDN'T NEED ALL THAT SEXPOSITION TO MAKE IT X___X like seriously while I usually don't mind naked women or naked people in general (and well, I'd probably make an exception to my heterosexuality for exactly two people who are not Ros & co xD) this is getting ridiculous. If we have to look at pointless naked all the time GET SOME MEN NAKED FFS WHAT IS THIS.

3) Yeah same, but in the show I just don't get what they're doing. And YES UGH RE STANNIS X__X last season he was better tbqh but this one he's being OOC all over the place, what? In the book from what I gather he doesn't even want to bang her in the first place but if he does it it's because of *reasons* he sees worthy, not OMG I'M IN LOVE WITH YOUUUU. book!stannis is only in love with Davos sorry

4) Actually I read some meta after and I realized that it had a point because the baby Lannisters are going to get killed like very soon and that's the reason Robb kills Rickard Karstark - I totally forgot that because in the book it was already happened when Robb got back from Jeyne's castle I think, so it probably meant to make the audience go like 'omg aw cute' before they're mercilessly killed, but DID THEY NEED TALISA BEING SO *SHINY* to do it uugggh I can't stand her anymore X___X and beyond 'WHAT DID YOU DO TO ROBB'S STORYLINE' reasons by now, she's so unreal for that setting that I can't even.

5) I think I came to terms with the fact that show!Robb is being a dick unnecessarily as long as he behaves somehow not too OOC outside it - this still was miles better than the travesty of the premiere, but still... bleeeerrghhhhh. I still think that's not Robb the way he should be but at least he doesn't look like a total bodysnatcher. for now. The moment he has another scene with Talisa it's gonna go out of the window probably.... ;)
The_Crazy_Freak: Theon 1the_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 01:01 pm (UTC)
2) The thing is that there isn't even that huge a number of sex scenes in the books and whenever there ARE, there's a always a good reason for them (like the Cersei/Taena scene where it's not even supposed to be sexy, because it's all about Cersei trying to put herself into a man's shoes and feeling powerful; for some reason, I'm afraid if they show that scene, they'll totally fuck it up by making it into some sexy-lesbian-sex). ugh

3) Yes to that last (crossed out) part. Also, I missed Davos again. He's been gone for two episodes now. :(( But I guess they can't do much with him, since he's in the dungeons. I hope Stannis finally releases him next week, so we can have that wonderful conversation from the books between them (it's the only way they can redeem show!Stannis to me right now, so they better not change the scene too much).

4) Oooohh, I totally forgot about that. I blame Talisa.

5) I think I've said this some time before, but I don't think I'm actually going to care when Robb dies at the RW - like, THAT is the extent of how much the show has ruined the character. In the books, I was seriously distraught over his death.
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> robbjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 08:38 pm (UTC)
That too - I really don't mind sex if it has a purpose and I can take it in moderate doses if it's without purpose, but this is getting ridiculous. :/ And considering that all the sex going on in the books actually has a purpose, regardless of whether GRRM has the great idea of putting metaphors in it or not... ;) (I hope that they don't turn it into hot lesbian sex either, also because I don't even think Cersei liked it that much? I could remember wrong though, Cersei for me is basically the Most Boring POV Ever so when I was reading AFFC I tended to miss shit when reading her chapters, oops.)

EXACTLY. Stannis, next episode treat Davos with all the honors and possibly give him a hug or something because hey I mean you're OOC by now at least be OOC for serious purposes and please redeem yourself to me because right now you're definitely not meeting my favor. D: also because I think that *that* conversation was when I seriously started more or less liking Stannis on his own instead of 'I like you because Davos likes you and because fandom is imo unfair to you' so they'd better get that right.

TALISA IS TO BE BLAMED FOR EVERYTHING. ALSO THE RED WEDDING. ACTUALLY IN THE SHOW IT'S TOTALLY 50% HER FAULT SO.

Weeeell the RW is... uhm, ranks second in the list of most traumatizing shit I've ever read (the first belongs to one time when I was reading a different book, someone died and I cried for three hours and a half straight and at the same time freaked out everyone in the house) and Robb totally takes the crown for 'all your favorite characters die 99% of the time but I'm the one who got it worse' so even if I don't really like show!Robb all that much for now I still think that I'll be devastated anyway. UNLESS they turn it into the Robb/Talisa Die Like Romeo And Juliet lovefest and at that point I'll just go and be angry instead. But yeah show!Robb makes it a lot harder to give a shit.

... maybe it was their plan all along? :(
The_Crazy_Freak: Do Not Want - Edthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 09:54 pm (UTC)
You're right, Cersei didn't enjoy it at all. Taena seemed to, but we can't be sure because we don't get her POV, obviously. We also can't be really sure if she was genuinely attracted to Cersei or if she was just pretending (like, I'm pretty sure she was a Tyrell spy, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have been attracted to Cersei at the same time). Oh, I didn't really think Cersei's POV was boring, but yeah, everyone has different opinions.

Yeah, I remember you once said that about the RW and it's totally understandable. I actually think their plan was quite the opposite. I think what they wanted to achieve with Talisa was the sympathy of people because they married FOR LOVE, so it's supposed to be BEAUTIFUL - also, their love is SO STRONG that Robb decided to pick HER over an important alliance. How INSPIRATIONAL. True love conquers all~ (note my sarcasm). But I feel like they kinda failed with that one, because book fans didn't fall for that crap. Though I suppose it works with lovestruck teenagers who feel like doing anything for their crush. *rolls eyes*

Edited at 2013-04-16 09:55 pm (UTC)
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> night's watchjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 10:05 pm (UTC)
Meh I have no clue what is with me and Cersei - I think that in theory she's interesting and I get why people like her, but.. it's not that I hate her, it's just that 10% of the time I think she's interesting, 20% makes me facepalm and the rest I just don't care either way. And her POVs are pretty much the same. But then again my favorite POV in AFFC was Brienne which apparently 90% of the fandom finds the Most Boring POV Ever so hey to each their cup of tea. ;)

Oh I totally think they wanted people to be sympathetic and actually it worked because most show only people I know are enamored with this marrying for love thing, but a) the way they did it was stupid, b) Robb still looks like an idiot, c) they could have done it without making him look like a dick at the same time, d) if you know how it was in the book it's just all kinds of no. And the thing... book!Robb was sixteen so I totally could have seen a sixteen-year old guy marrying out of OMG LOVEEE, but... show!Robb is supposed to know fucking better than that, he's not sixteen XD and BOOK!ROBB DIDN'T DO IT, so.. er... yeah. Huge no.
The_Crazy_Freakthe_crazy_freak on April 16th, 2013 10:34 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I get that. I actually think she's really interesting as a character, but I don't exactly like her. I used to hate her, but when her POV appeared, I began to understand her more, I guess, and she started to intrigue me. I still don't exactly like her, but I suppose you can say she's grown enough on me that I don't hate her anymore. But I don't feel sorry for what's happened to her either, because she has actually brought all of this on herself with her schemes against Margaery. In my country we have a saying that translates to "Whoever digs a pit for another, will fall into it himself", basically meaning that if you want to hurt someone with something, you'll be the one who is going to end up being hurt by that very thing in the end. Which is exactly what happened to Cersei.

Yeah, pretty much. >__>
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> team hodorjanie_tangerine on April 16th, 2013 10:57 pm (UTC)
Sometimes I think that if she had chapters from the beginning I'd have liked her better, but my feelings for her have mostly been 'I wish I cared but I really don't', except for when she told Jaime that he was worthless after the hand loss - those particular instances made me rather pissed, lol. That said I feel exactly the same about her - I wouldn't wish what happened to her on anyone, I thought it was disgusting and I don't think she *deserved* it, but I also think that she totally dug that grave for herself. And she had had plenty of people actually advising her right and she still didn't listen, and same re the endless war against Margaery - as far as I'm concerned she totally could have avoided it if only she had listened to some sensed advice.