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14 May 2012 @ 01:55 pm
game of thrones 2x07, a man without honor  
Premise one: as stated last week, civil Theon discussion is welcomed. Theon bashing will bring ugly reactions out of me, so.. yeah. None of that, please.

Premise two: this review is a minefield of book spoilers and comparison between ACOK-book and the show. I'm gonna spoiler cut everything, but since the spoiler cut doesn't work on my cellphone I'm warning to thread carefully, especially since I'm spoiling shit up until ADWD and not small things only.

Okay, so, uuuh, let's go with the nice division.

The good


^ credit

look at them. LOOK AT THEM and see them very well, for they'll be the only source of squee from now on.

2) Jaime Lannister, my love for you, let me show you it. Yes, you're seemingly amoral douche but I love everything about you, especially that you totally don't have a quibble at killing your kin just to escape without a sword and in a camp full of people. Also I love your rambling about vows and your matter of fact attitude and you owning to the shit you pull and ohmygod people I need next episode NOW okay.

3) Brienne arguing with that guy outside Cat's tent was too good to be real. OH BRIENNE COME HERE I LOVE YOU.

4) Richard Madden you look lovely.. Also seems like the Jeyne (or not Jeyne) thing is heading at the geographical point where it should be headed, so let's just hope the trolling is over as soon as possible and that it goes the way it should go. K show?

5) Alfie Allen, you're flawless. Your face is a thing of beauty. And your acting skills are just - I LOVE YOU OKAY. I love how he hysterical he gets the moment shit overwhelms his poor character - oh gosh he's just - HIS FACE AT THE END EVERYTHING whoever picked him for Theon is a genius. End of it.

6) Arya, don't give yourself out. Also: [spoilers for ADWD, not Arya-related]it was very, VERY interesting that they had Tywin bring out the whole my lord/m'lord thing, which in the books was first brought up when Roose Bolton told Theon that saying my lord gave him out and then Theon kept on fluttering between m'lord when he was in full Reek mode and my lord when he was.. well, himself or what came close to it. Or at least he had to remind himself to say m'lord. This is kinda making me think they're not fucking with that part. Ugh. I'll weep. Also I love the tension they're keeping between the two of them.


End of story.

The bad

8) WTF is with Sansa's storyline? Because it just... makes no sense. Her flowering now and having Sandor rat her out when he said he'd spend her married life doing the contrary a moment before is totally senseless, and [spoiler for ASOS]there's a reason why Sansa had her period in book THREE and not before. Also idg the entire thing with Sansa and Shae being bffs thought I don't... dislike it on principle or whatever. I just don't care enough about Shae, but apart from that I just don't get what's going on with that entire plot. Hopefully they have some plan behind this, but I can't see it at all.

9) Reason why I didn't want Littlefinger being like 'hey you can exchange Jaime with your daughters' at Cat: that Cat had the talk with Jaime before she knew about the shit going down at Winterfell. It makes the entire thing a lot less poignant and while I get it might be for timing reasons, I still don't like it as a general thing.

10) Roose Bolton's face. Ugh. Fuck him sideways.

11) That his bastard hasn't shown up yet. Which will be related to the second point, which is the part I'm really kind of pissed about.

12) Okay, so, Theon. And the lack of Roose Bolton's kid showing up. [spoilers through all of ACOK and about how they dealt with a certain thing here, so if you didn't read the book and don't want to be spoiled to hell and back just avoid this, and spoilers for ADWD too, pretty heavy, so if you don't know that either don't click. Or scroll. ANYTHING BUT DON'T LOOK.]WHAT THE FUCK OBVIOUSLY THEY HAD TO KEEP THAT STUPID RETCON. Meaning, they had to make everyone believe that Theon really killed Bran and Rickon, which he fucking didn't. I was seriously hoping they'd show that he didn't really do it - or at least that he killed the miller's kids - because clearly now also the audience thinks that Theon did it. Except that in the book there was a pretty obvious couple sentences suggesting that he hadn't before the ending, so I can just hope it's addressed next week, but I just - I was really hoping that they wouldn't do that, because now I won't even be able to read reactions from people who didn't read the books. I can't exactly go on being the guy's PR if we don't assume that the people he killed weren't Bran and Rickon, but it'd mean spoiling the big reveal, so I'll just... have to keep off tv-only reviews. And off tumblr. Gosh, SO MUCH. Mostly because all the ridiculous Theon hate around is making me want to retch already.

Other problem with not having seen it happen and with the lack of Ramsay: it puts the entire fuck up on Theon's shoulders, which - okay, it's *his* fault, but it completely glosses over one point: that half the reason why Theon resorted to killing the miller's kids and passing them off for Bran and Rickon was Ramsay Bolton suggesting it. Now, arguably, the fake Bran and Rickon death is the biggest fuck up that Theon ever did because *not* killing them but having everyone believe they were dead spawned all the crap that Robb did and Theon's own downfall (well, okay, it was where he laid in his grave after digging it). But arguably, it wasn't all Theon, and considering that he ends up tortured by the person who suggested it to him and who's related to OH WAIT THE GUY WHO BETRAYS ROBB AND DOES THAT OTHER THING isn't the kind of parallel that's.. subtle. Also: one of the biggest points of Theon's character is that for all he boasts, most decisions in his life were taken by someone else. He never decided to be an hostage, he never even wanted to choose between the north and his home, half of the decisions he takes after taking Winterfell are crappy also because he's forced to take them by his men or by the situation being out of his control and then he ends up with his entire capability of taking decisions stripped away from him along with his name, which excuse me but it's not exactly a little. Basically, as far as I counted, the only real decisions he ever takes in the series are a) coming up with the alliance with Robb that his dad refuses (here he's trying to concile the Stark side and the Greyjoy side, and it goes the way it goes), b) invading Winterfell (he tries to prove he belongs to his family, he doesn't win them over, ruins his only real healthy-ish relationship [with Robb] and ends up in a dungeon flayed until he doesn't know who he is anymore) and c) saving Jeyne Poole in ADWD (he gains back his name and does the real first selfless thing he ever did). Putting the fake Bran and Rickon killing all on his shoulders means.. well, implying that he'd ever come up with it on his own. And while Theon is a total fucked up kid, he isn't Gregor Clegane or any Bolton or Vargo Hoat or you-get-the-drill. He did that because a) he dug his own grave and he already doesn't have any respect from his men, he couldn't come back empty handed and b) A LICENSED PSYCHOPATH WHO'S GOING TO DO HORRIBLE THINGS TO HIM LATER WAS THE ONE COMING UP WITH THE IDEA. In ADWD it was plain that he hadn't *wanted* to do that or that he had never planned to kill them, if he had found them. But not having Ramsay around implies that it's all him and... really. No. He's a mess, 'course, and he does horrible things, but he does them because he's put himself in a situation out of his control, and because he has fucking issues and because every fucking thing he does turns out bad even if he has good intentions, but he doesn't do them because he's inherently evil. Which is Theon's point - he's not *evil* and he really never had control on 95% of his life.

.... yeah, uuuuh, this part might have ran on me and this is probably into meta territory, but there's a reason I don't like what's happened. I guess we might get a flashback later, but they did the damage already - people are gonna cheer the moment Ramsay stabs him in the back and I just - I can't. Ugh. And that said next episode is titled THE PRINCE OF WINTERFELL. Nice. Considering that there's a chapter with that name in ADWD and considering what happened in that, if there's foreshadowing and Ramsay I'm going to need alcohol.

Oh, and that stated: last day I was on tumblr and someone candidly posted a thing that they wanted to do to Theon that.. arguably happened in ADWD. I literally felt sick. I don't think that I can take the haterade.

13) Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor. [spoilers for ACOK about something they changed]So wait, they aren't hiding in the crypts? And there's no Reed kids on the horizon?How are they going to talk to Master Luwin at episode-the-last? Uhm. I'm perplexed.

the ugly

14) Uuuuhm, wtf is up with Dany's storyline? I realized that I don't really remember half of the stuff that was up in book two except for her going to the house of the undying, but IO don't remember the fake Nosferatus, the bloodbaths and the entire mess going on. Idg what they're doing and to be entirely honest I don't even care that much if I can't ogle Iain Glen, but I still find it highly confusing.

15) Also this isn't necessarily ugly but while I like show!Cersei better than the book, I really can't see her having doubts or wondering if she's paying the price for her sins. Dude, in the book she doesn't even conceive the idea of having sins, this isn't computing XD

Also, random extra Robb/Theon possible parallel [spoilers for ASOS]sooooo wait, Karstark's head is flying this season, yes? And in more than one stroke as in the books? PARALLELS ANYONE?. Just that, but.

In short: this episode would have been worthy just for Jaime's face alone (AND OH MY OTP), but my enjoyment is being tampered with worry about a) what they're doing with Sansa, b) the Theon stuff, because while that part isn't different (much) from book stuff I really don't need them to play on certain things and making my fandom life miserable and the internet explode with hate even when one of the good things they did this season is that they're really showing that he's not doing them out of simply being an ass who likes to see people suffer. (He doesn't, by the way.)

And with this I'll go have lunch. Post with other tv-related reactions will happen shortly.
feeling: confusedconfused
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theonjanie_tangerine on May 14th, 2012 05:54 pm (UTC)
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theonjanie_tangerine on May 14th, 2012 10:45 pm (UTC)
I made the same mistake and after a masterpiece like 'if he really did what I think I did Robb is going to tear him to pieces - heck I hope that Robb tortures him* I decided that if I ever do it again I'll do it drunk. Other than not seeing his face at the end people just - CAN YOU JUST LOOK AT IT FROM HIS SIDE FFS? HE DOESN'T *WANT* TO DO IT. He never *wanted* to do it. But apart from that it's just not good for my health, when people who didn't read ADWD are like 'I hope X thing happens to him' and IT'S IN THE BUNCH OF THINGS THAT REALLY HAPPENED TO HIM I start seeing red and it's not any good for me. :/
The Cleaverage: end is nighkel_reiley on May 14th, 2012 09:10 pm (UTC)

7. The actress playing her is PERFECT.

8. I feel like... they're just making shit up so we get to see these characters more, b/c honestly I'm finding it difficult to remember what Sansa or Shae were even doing during book 2.

13. I still have some hope that they doubled back and are hiding there.

14. SAME HERE. I was totally confused during that part. Is it just me? Or do you not remember her dragons being stolen either?

15. I think they are trying to make Cercei more sympathetic. It's not working, they've simply made her less boring to me.

I'm trying hard not to compare book vs. show too much, b/c I know they have to change/skip some things. But I hate it when they change/skip my favorite parts! GAH!
the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> team hodorjanie_tangerine on May 14th, 2012 10:50 pm (UTC)

7. I know? Casting department, ilu.

8. Mmmh Sansa was talking with Sandor and having the thing where Ser Dontos talked to her in the godswood (also why did they introduce him if they're not using him?) and Shae was having sex with Tyrion while hiding in the brothel and he had to travel to see her. I think. But yeah it's not much they had going on.

13. Me too. They have to talk to Master Luwin before they go. :/ and the Reed kids UGH where are they.

14. No, they totally made it up. For *drama* I guess. But really other than the house of the undying I really don't remember half of the shit Dany was up to - that said it was nothing like what's happening on show.

15. It's... mmh I'm not saying it's working because I don't like her still but she's definitely more compelling than in the book. Still, considering that in the book she was like OMG JOFFREEEEYYYY HOW PERFECT WERE YOU even in AFFC this entire thing is looking a bit fishy to me.

Same here. Mostly I'm just worked up about Theon because while I can work with the rest, he already gets enough bad rep as it is. They don't need to up the ante, even if they're doing their best to show that he's an actual human being. Pity that it's apparently useless..... :/
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> sansajanie_tangerine on May 14th, 2012 10:55 pm (UTC)
... ooops, my bad. I was sure it was in the beginning of book three but I must have gotten it mixed up with something else. I'm gonna edit over there at some point. /o\

And eeeeh apparently yes? Though Blackwater is in two episodes, but then again I thought it was in ASOS - if it's in here maybe it's just timing/practicality/they can't fit all of that in episode 9. Which doesn't still make sense because next episode would have been better anyway and the entire thing still seemed too random. :// sigh.
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> sandorjanie_tangerine on May 15th, 2012 08:08 pm (UTC)
Oops sorry I worded it horribly - I meant that Blackwater is episode 9 and we're at seven so it's two episodes from now. I was half-speculating that if I had the timing wrong and Sansa isn't in the next episode maybe it happened this early because they won't have time to pack too much stuff in episode 9 but I didn't mean that the battle was in two separate episodes :)
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on May 15th, 2012 04:51 pm (UTC)
The thing that kind of puzzles me is that I find show!Theon a lot more sympathetic than he was in ACOK, mostly because in ACOK in order to get to the point you had to go through all his internal monologue stuff and his head wasn't exactly the greatest place to be, but apart from that one would think that people would at least... I don't know, get where he comes from at least. Not that I justify his actions, he's being an idiot, but he's misguided, not an evil psycho who enjoys inflicting pleasure. :/ That said UGH YES THE IT'S BETTER TO BE CRUEL THAN WEAK THING, it killed me ;__; and no, he doesn't really believe it but he's like 'what else do I do?'


THAT. THAT. I just - I don't really get how people can think he's A NATURAL BORN KILLER AND WORSE THAN JOFFREY after seeing the face he made - he was obviously gonna be sick. :(

I know? Maisie is so good! And Arya is awesome. I <3 her.

I have no idea what's happening next with Dany because they changed that part quite radically so I'm like okay good let's see how it goes now.
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the female ghost of tom joad: asoiaf >> theon 2.0janie_tangerine on May 15th, 2012 10:03 pm (UTC)
THAT. Ugh I cringe whenever people are like 'BUT HE'S WORSE THAN JOFFREY'. Like, it's obvious that he doesn't *enjoy* it, while sorry but Joffrey does enjoy inflicting pain on others. Everyone seems not to notice that he's looking about to throw up at any given second :// jfc it's perfectly fine to dislike him, but from there to the ridiculous hate is getting for something he obviously DIDN'T want to do. And I swear when he candidly was like 'well I didn't run when *I* was an hostage so why should they?' I think my heart shattered :// he's not a crazy sadist dammit.